Big News this AM

[cleopatra]

Hi Godload.
Actually, free heart surgeries are available in the USA; no one is thrown out on the street. If the service can't be performed for free, then donations are solicited to perform the service. Americans are generous and can afford to be. Some Americans complain that they can get free heart surgery, but have to pay for the drugs to keep them alive. I guess it boils down to the argument whether healthcare is a right or not. That's another debate.

Canada has a substandard healthcare system. That's why so many Canadians go to the US to get healed. Canada's Fraser Institute just released this report on October 19, 2004. Here is an excerpt from the Wall Street Journal:

Voters yearning for the federal government to start rationing American health care might want to take note of a study just released by our neighbors up north. The Vancouver-based Fraser Institute yesterday published its 14th annual report on hospital waiting times in Canada. In medical terms, the patient is not responding to increasing doses of dollars -- and the prognosis is not good. Under Canada's government-run health-care monopoly, Fraser reports that the average wait for hospital treatment is 17.9 weeks. That's the average over 12 specialties and 10 provinces. To take just one example, the projected wait for hip-replacement surgery in British Columbia is 52 weeks. "These waiting times are the longest that Canadians have ever experienced," notes Fraser's senior health policy analyst, Nadeem Esmail. And "they exist despite record levels of health spending."

The waiting times have fueled Canada's growing gray market in health care. Patients seeking to avoid the pain or inconvenience of long waits increasingly seek treatment in private clinics.... Paying a private clinic for a hip replacement or a cataract operation isn't always strictly legal -- there are laws limiting the treatment private clinics may provide -- but the government understands the political expediency of looking the other way.

The government itself uses private clinics for Royal Canadian Mounted Police, provincial workman's compensation cases and prison inmates. Thus the Canadian joke about the prisoner who asks his cellmate, "What are you in for?" Answer: "Hip replacement." If all else fails, there's always the American option. Timely Medical Alternatives, a private company in Vancouver, contracts with hospitals south of the border to care for Canadian patients.

Fraser demonstrates Canada's universal health care system has created shortages that leave sick Canadians wanting. There are many things to admire about Canada, but medical care is not one of them.

Yes, your prisoners get better healthcare than your law-abiding citizens.

SARS kicked Canada's butt. China had a 6% death rate from SARS; Canada had a 15% death rate from SARS. The US, which had 73 cases of SARS, had zero deaths. You mean to tell me that Communist China has much better medical care than a Western country?

Many Canadians I've talked to say that although the state (aka taxes) pay for healthcare, a lot of times you get it on their terms, often having to wait for hours to be seen by a doctor even with an appointment, or having surgeries put off for weeks or even months, and often there are copayments that patients have to pay, just like with an American HMO. If my appendix burst I would hope it could be taken care of with an efficiency greater than that found at the Post Office. As much as Canadians pay in taxes they should have been able to cure death by now. An article from Canada.com in March of 2003 said that between 3 and 4 million Canadians couldn't get a family doctor.

Canada sends home people to die if they forget their health card!

Let's point out something else that should be obvious to anyone who has a semi-active brain stem. In Canada, the state has a MONOPOLY on healthcare. What happens in any monopoly? Poor service. Waste. Cost inflation. That's a fact. It doesn't matter if you don't see the waste, spelled out in clear terms at the top of the front page of the newspaper. It's there in any noncompetitive business situation, and in Canada's case, the taxpayers pick up the slack. In the US, you have many healthcare providers all competing to have the most professional staff, the most modern and pleasant facilities, and the lowest overhead. The customer wins.

Let's not forget that, according to the UN, the USA has a higher Quality Of Life than Canada does.

When a US company launches a drug, it gets a patent that prohibits another company from selling the same drug for usually around 10 years. When the patent expires, any other company can sell their "generic” versions of the drug. Since the generic versions required no R&D costs, they cost much less than the original. Most of these drugs are the result of American R&D. To launch a drug, a company must first undergo years of R&D. Once the drug is developed, it must endure a rigorous Federal approval process. By the time the drug gets to the market, the company has typically spent about $1 Billion of its own money.

To recover this investment, the company must charge its US customers a "blended price" for the drug. That is: [the “marginal cost” (cost to make each new unit-(say $5)] + [a “fixed cost” (premium to help pay down its huge investment - (say $50)].

Canada has laws that force the drug companies to sell the drugs at the marginal cost only (i.e. the $5) + a small profit (say $1). There is also the fact that the Canadian dollar is weaker, which makes their generic drugs cheaper.

The US produces the vast majority of new drugs on the market.

I am aware that Flemming discovered penicillin - in 1928. Flemming was also from the UK.

Our taxes also go to education and infrastructure. You also, in many instances, have to pay deductables for your healthcare. Also, some of your taxes go towards having over 300,000 baby harp seals clubbed and skinned alive per year.

Also your public education system is a piece of crap. Your students rank below Canadian students in the world in the Maths, and Sciences. I think the US ranks like 30 in the world in public education from what I saw on CNN today.

That could be, in part, because the Canadian grading scale makes it MUCH EASIER to pass. In the US, a 64% or below is an F. In Canada, a 49% and below is an F. In Canada, a 60%, which will fail you in the US, will get you a C+. An 80%, which is a C in the US, is an A- in Canada. I have heard Canadians mock President Bush for being a C student at Harvard (a school with tough academic standards), but if he was in Canada, he would be an A- student.

But In Texas which implemented a soley abstinance program into their sex education in public schools, they have the highest teen Aids, teen std, and pregnancy rates compared with the rest of the other states. This was the greatest contribution by your Republican counterparts. They are doing a great job.

Actually, teen AIDS and STDS have went up since the liberals started to teach teenage sex in the classroom. Thank you liberals for taking that out of the hands of the family.

Also I find it quite hypocritical that GW is pro-life and anti-abortion, but he allows the Assault rifle ban to expire? Do you know 60000 Americans die from fire arms every year?

Not nearly as hypocritical as I find it when people are against the death penalty (like Canadians), but yet Canada murders over 100,000 babies every year.

According to the Republican Party Jesus Christ doesn't want women to have a right to choose

Actually, they don't think women should have the right to commit murder.

The 2nd Amendment allows US citizens the right to bear arms. There is a reason for that. It keeps our govt in check. Hitler disarmed his citizens. You know what he did to the Jews. It's not going to happen here. The UK disarmed its citizens but is surprised when the bad guys didn't turn in thier firearms!
Your 60,000 figure is simply not true. It is about 8000.

There are 1.4 million registered gun owners in Canada, and about 667,000 (one-half) unregistered gun owners are protesting by refusing to register, even after the government waived the registration fee. 2 Million is about equal to the total populations of Detroit, Washington DC and Saint Louis combined; three of America's bloodiest cities. The article that I linked to says, "The law does little to curb gun use by criminals, and criminals are obtaining firearms easily illegally, or in some instances legally." Unregistered guns are harder to track, so have fun trying to run down the criminals who do have them, and do use them on Canadian civilians and cops. No serial numbers, no ballistics tests. Have fun with that little forensics nightmare.

Btw, I believe that your gun registry law was supposed to cost $2 million, but is up to over $1 billion now. Another example of govt "efficiency."

 

[cleopatra]

Continued:

Who is funding the terrorists in Iraq?

Saddam Hussein. He funneled his money out of Iraq to Syria before he was overthrown. Remember Saddam? He is the massmurdering dictator who the son-in-law of your former PM (Chretien) was in bed with...his father being the largest shareholder of France's TotalFinaElf oil company (who had huge oil contracts with Sadddam).

Republican campaign ads still say they wen't into Iraq because of 9/11 which was proven to be false,

Then why did Clinton appointed federal judge Harold Baer rule that Iraq was involved in 9/11? You can't use the "he's a conservative judge" on this one.

So hug that Bible and vote for the Republicans as they continue to strip away your civil liberties as they say if ya complain your not American.

Keep on bashing the Bible and turning yourself into a secular society. We all know what the USSR and Nazi Germany - two secular societies - were like. I don't know what civil liberites are being stripped away. If you are talking about the Patriot Act, then please give me some examples of people suffering because of a loss of civil liberties. I have asked this of people many times; none have been able to give me any examples.

I find it kinda ironic that the US economy has done better under Democrats than under Republicans which seems strange.

You must have forgotten about the Carter years and who was the one who pulled the economy out of the economic horror that Americans suffered through during the Carter presidency. That person was the great Ronald Reagan. Not only did he turn the economy around, he liberated hundreds of millions of people from brutal tyranny. Republicans do that. Reagan, Bush, Jr, and of course, Republican president Abraham Lincoln ended legalized slavery. Additionally. it was the Republicans who pushed through Congress the end of Jim Crow. Democrats turn a surprisingly blind eye to people suffering under tyranny. I often wonder why they have the image of being the tolerant party. Oh, I just remembered why. The liberals control the media and the educational institutions.

You can also kill that social security good bye if Gw gets back into office. He says he is going to privatize it.

He said no such thing.

Canada and the US have two different systems. Both have their positives and negatives. But the main difference is that Americans encourage personal responsibility. We get to keep more of our money (through much lower taxation), and it is OUR MONEY, not the govts, but we are expected to look after ourselves more. Canada has very high taxation and looks to its govt to look after its citizens. Some call that a cradle to grave Nanny State.

 

[cleopatra]

Hi Brad

I think it is most often the level of egoic arrogance that annoys Canadians about Americans. You seem to be proud of the States and of Bush(?)... I can’t tell if you are truly caught by your self importance or whether you are enjoying playing a role of bigot because you really feel that Canadians are such themselves. There are certainly examples in posts above that I would characterize as playful nationalistic arrogance. It doesn’t seem like you’re playing though…

Wow. I defend my country from lies and bashing from Canadians and I am a bigot. You characterize all this American bashing as playful national arrogance, but when I reply in kind, all of a sudden I am not playing...

You certainly seem to want some kind of reaction here, but what?

The same reaction that the Canadians want?

For the second, I doubt you're going to get any converts, so what Are you wanting to do?

Just defending my country and my president. Do you want me to leave like that other Canadian lady did because she was so tired of the Canadians here bashing America? I'm not trying to convert anybody. How can I convert people who hate America so much? The CBC does a great job of indoctrinating you....and you pay them to do so.

we have watched how power and wealth have affected you: and my guess is that a majority of us have not liked what we’ve seen on that score…

But there are some that do like what they see. There's a movement trying to make Ontario become part of The US. Also, there are seperatist movements in BC, Alberta, Ontario, Quebec, and Newfoundland. Canadians say a lot of bad things about the US, but they can't call it a leaky ship. The US hasn't had to deal with separatists since the Civil War ended in 1865.

We aren't trying to decide what is good for the "rest of us". Our culture dominates the world; we can't help it. It is the rest of the world that is trying to undermine our economy and our military through insane things like the Kyoto Accord and the International Criminal Court. In short, some people are trying to interfere in our sovereignty. Those space weapons you mock helped to bring down the Empire of Evil and liberate hundreds of millions of Russians and Eastern Europeans. As for gas guzzling SUVs, I can see why they don't go over well here. The gas prices are insanely high due to your high taxation. Who could afford to pay for the gas for a SUV in Canada? And I would rather be controlled by corporate America than Canadian government. I read a couple months back that 80 or 85% of the jobs created this year in Canada were created by the govt. That's just like Europe and we all know that their economy is struggling. No wonder Canada has such high unemploment.

So, Cleopatra, our anger (?) / my anger is with those, like you, who would seem to be advocating the Rightness of leading the world in Hypnotized by Bush fashion into an economic, military and political world system (dominated by an American style of Freedom and Democracy) that speaks with forked tongue through a mouthpiece like George Bush about spreading freedom, when he and his corporate bosses are clearly doing exactly the reverse, no matter, sorry, what you might say or believe.

Nonsense. President Bush did not spend $116 billion and 1100 (combat and noncombat) lives for "his corporate bosses". Something has to be done about the cesspool of terrorism int he Mid East and we have them right where we want them. They have come to Iraq to fight us and that is better than fighting them on American soil.

Re your humour, btw, the recent release of Team America: Global Police is an awesome break in the usual style of comedy. It ‘sends up’ the self importance of the States in a way that is hopeful of change.

My favorite parts where when they mocked the Hollyweird liberals and Hans Blix.

Last but not least: “Being God is a lonely place” they say and George B may well end up having all of you feel that loneliness far more, right alongside him…

President Bush is going to be re-elected no matter how hard the liberal media campaigns for Kerry. He is a strong leader, doesn't flip-flop, and has allowed Americans to keep more of their money, unlike Clinton who gave us the highest tax increase in history. There is no way that the American public will vote for a characterless person who stabbed his Vietnam mates in the back, like Kerry did. The American public does not take to northeastern liberal elitists. The last one who won was John Kennedy - 44 years ago. Remember what happened to Dukakis? The last two Democrats to win were Clinton and Carter - both Southerners. America will vote in Bush just to give the middle finger to people like the Euro-lefty elitists who work at the UK's Guardian...who yesterday called for President Bush to be assassinated

Take care, Brad.

 

[mirage]

Cleopatra,

Your volumes and volumes of so-called "facts" are so riddled with half-truths and distortions, few people know where to begin. Who has the energy to be bothered trying to take on such a futile exercise? The information which you or your your "oponents" are spouting depends on who and what you read. If everyone else on this forum (and it does seem like you are on your own up against the rest: I've yet to read any other person who is supportive of your point of view on this forum) has been informed through reading liberal or "socialist controlled" media sources then you must be getting your facts and information from right-wing media publications. Are we talking about a "socialist" conspiracy as per your intimations?

To go all the way back to Hitler and Mussolini, yes they may have represented themselves to the people of their time and their nations as "socialists" but in reality nothing could be farther from the truth. That's just one example of your misconstruing of the "facts".

To give Godload the benefit of the doubt, perhaps his 60000 figure was a typo - one zero too many - or else he got that number from an anti fire-arms sight, I don't know. What is true is that many more Americans per capita are killed through the use of fireams than are Canadians. Guns are very easily obtained in the U.S., much more so than in Canada. And in the U.S. fire weapons are much more sought after and persons are more inclined to acquire them for the purpose of self-protection and defense rather than for hunting. This seems to me the product of a culture that promotes aggression and paranoia. To the best of my knowledge the U.S. has a less than efficacious gun regulation system. Btw, herein lies another contradiction in your point of view: the right to bear arms is to enable the citizens of the U.S. of A. to protect themselves even if necessary against their own leadership and government in the name of personal freedom.

Gun registration law in Canada was a money wasting fiasco, to be sure, and the law for enforcing gun registration either just been canned or is slated to be scrapped in parliament soon. Yes, this is one example of a money wasting scheme which seems endemic to our style of government but the intent behind such wasteful ventures tends to be in the name of assistance or protection for the common citizen. As opposed to the intent or spirit in which money is thrown away in the great U.S. of A. in order to give aid to ruthless special interest groups, including large corporations, the military, and lobbyist agents. And don't protend these don't special interest groups and persons don't exist and don't exert a great influence on the policy of the U.S. because the rest of the whole world knows that they do. As for certain Americans, they are in a profound state of what's known as denial. In other words, they are living in a DisneyWorld, theme-park of the mind.

As for your comment about the U.S. having enough oil for its own requirements, I think you better check your sources of that information again. Why do you think the U.S. is in Iraq really? Comm'n, it was even thought initially that there was billions of barrels in Afganistan, but when that turned out to be not so much the case, well then there was Iraq. Everyone knows that Iraq has (one of) the as yet largely untapped reserves of oil on the planet, up there with Saudi Arabia. If Saudi Arabia goes down then the U.S. is hoping it will have Iraq in the bag. Nothing wrong with that really, if you want to remain "top dog" in a dog-eat-dog world, but it sure doesn't make you popular with the rest of the planet's citizens.

Btw, GWB went to Havard, and also to Yale, like his daddy.

As I write this the U.S. has a deficit to date in 2004 of $413 billion. This is in part the result of TAX CUTS, a down turn in the stock market (just a coincidence) and sending troops off to fight terrorists in Afganistan and Iraq, so that GWB, his cronies and the elite of America and the world can enjoy financial independence, even if it means the rest of the U.S. of A. goes down the tubes economically. Meanwhile Canada is enjoying a modest surplus, partly because we didn't send troops to fight in Iraq, thank God. The U.S. dollar is falling and Canada's is on the rise. And why would Canada care about whether or not it has contracts to help rebuild Iraq when to send companies and workers off to such a dangerous place is a fools venture, verily, to risk execution by beheading?

I think it is safe to state that Canada and the U.S. are economically interdependent, as is North America with the rest of the world. If the U.S. goes down the tubes, Canadians know that this will have a huge impact on Canada. Why do you think Canadians look at what's going on in the U.S. with such apprehension and uneasiness? If there is yet another recession, or general economic devaluation, the personal economic responsibility which you advocate for persons in the U.S. and everywhere will only apply to those fortunate enough to have shares and interests outside the big U.S. stocks and bonds market. It will be out of reach for the vast majority, rendering your strategy for success via personal economical responsibility as the way to happiness, prosperity and well-being for individuals, family, and society in general, fallacious and ridiculous.

Take care.

 

[peter]

Another great post Mirage
Cleopatra is the Queen of spin doctoring.
She could even find facts to dispute that we Canadians are not only Gold meddalists in hockey, but also World champions.
Keep on spinning Cleopatra, eventually you'll spin long enough, that your own euphoria will make you dizzy.

 

[Dennis Bassboss]

I think that everyone here will stick to their opinions ...so why continue this argument????
This will only be dragged on and on...
Should have name this thread
''The Neverending story''
So express your opinion once ...And that's it!! Also, Everyone should respect all opinions expressed even if it is the direct opposite of yours....If not you are all preaching in the desert....
You won't solve anything here on a lotto dedicated forum...Not much different from spammers...
Speaking of bandwith lost...pweeee....

 

[peter]

Well said Dennis I could'nt agree more.
LT should close this thread.
everyone has had there say, so it is done.

 

[peter]

Looking at the post count on this thread I could'nt believe it.
Brad=34
Peter=34
Cleopatra=28
JBiff=27
Dennis=25
Shirazbai=20
several others with single digit posts.

 

[Godload]

Actually Take a look at where Canada stands in the world when the UN ranks best places to live in the world every year and take a look at where the US stands. Canadian cities rank within the top 10 every year.
And if you don't think Bush will privitize your social security with people being able to take out some of the contributions you were not listening to the 3rd debate. Bush said it to everyone in that 3rd debate.

 

[Barrylightbourn]

Further Observations

Hello Cleo...

I'm unsure how to start this...

You addressed a response to my post as "Hello Brad", but I think I clearly marked it Barry...

I have never 'dialogued' with you before Cleopatra. Maybe you thought Brad was posing as another?

Take a look, I joined this forum in April, but that "Observations" post was my first.

I'm imagining you must be feeling like you're surrounded by attackers here. Unfortunately though Cleo, that's where and how a lot of us feel about Bush and your Homeland:

Attacked. Invaded. Terrorized... A War on Terror Can Terrorize...

My attempt was explanatory: Canada and the world will inevitably be intimately impacted by whether Bush gets re-elected. There seems to be little or even no recognition from you or other Right oriented people that we have cause for concern (and a Right to it, I would contend!) when someone is impacting us and we are not Free to be able to do something about it... after all, you would contend: You're Right!

Respect for another’s position has clearly deteriorated in this discussion, as it has in the Israel/Palestine or USA/World debacles. I asked you Cleo, what you were looking for and you said perhaps what we (Canadians) are looking for... For me here I speak (type!) as an attempt to warn you that even if you do not like some of these "Liberal" opinions, they do have a validity that you and Bush ignore at the world's peril. Reactions to Bush's provincial attitude (Canadian, eh?) will impact your 'friend' and your country. People will not continue to lie down for an American Juggernaut that will be deciding for us what is Right and what is wrong/Left/Liberal... That dichotomy/characterization is spurious - to put it Mildly.

Cleo, I will dare to speak for the world : There is indeed a spiritual polarization going on, yes?

But it is not Islam vs. Christianity/Judaism: it is more an 'allowing of people's options for free choice' vs. less. And clearly lots of the world and Canadians see you and Bush advocating for the latter (i.e. Less Freedom all the while saying he wants to 'give' more freedom...)

Re that Guardian writers comments which imply wanting Bush to be "Offed": That Anger with your president is because the man does not listen, just as it is seeming to appear that you are not listening/just as you would claim that 'we' are not listening to you. But Cleo, when people are brushed aside the way that he has done, it gets reactions. Apparently even his own father feels he's gone too far: an excellent article on that here ( http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ed...icles/2003/10/18/bush_srs_message_to_bush_jr/ )

You obviously admire and respect him. Okay. And if you want to 'write off' the world's distaste for him (as per this http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/viewsofamerica/story/0,15221,1327568,00.html article) that's your option - I just don't think you are going to convince too many here of his innocence.

You say that there are some of us wanting to 'join you'... Well, there have been numbers of Americans saying publicly they'll emigrate to Canada if your 'friend' gets in. That tit for tat won't ameliorate our discussion. Maybe nothing can...

Do I want you to leave the board? No, frankly, I really don't care. I believe in each of us going through the mystery of life on the basis of free choice - not invading others space. (Btw, those yet to be bankrupting of your economy and the worlds energy future space based weapons: they did not actually save us from Communism, Cleo, but they might well continue the slide into believing we can never rise above our 'basest' drives for fearful reaction and dominance over others who we disagree with.)

You don't want the world to look to assassinate Bush but it was okay for your President to look to assassinate Hussein before him being tried for his atrocities. It's okay for Bush to work outside the law when he's accusing others of being outside the law... Huh?

Yes, probably in most ways we may be better off having Hussein incarcerated, but in doing so we have torpedoed Justice: we have inculcated a potentially growing doctrine that Any Means are Justified for the RIGHT End... That is a lynch mob process Cleo - we think you're guilty, therefore we can take you out...

We have had some 'civilization' in the West supposedly because we had 'due process' internationally as well as in each country's courts. Bush's invasion is giving license for others more than ever to believe they can also Take the Law into Their Own Hands.

Bush and Bin Laden do not appear so enormously different from a broader perspective: they both say they are fighting for what is Right… Now, post Iraq invasion, we have no mechanism for clarifying and diminishing Bin Laden's arguments because Bush's knee jerk reaction has ended consensus: it is the USA vs. any of The Rest of the World who disagree with You (Please don't invade us ). Because You say you have our Best Interests at Heart, does not make us believe it: you'll have to work a long time on this to do that.

Bin Laden and Co unfortunately gain credibility elsewhere because an understanding of the cause of their countries poverty is dismissed by 'free market' advocates: they should just simply Get A Life... What if they do not want a life either in SUV Land or at MacDonald’s? You and Bush do not seem to understand how our/the West's energy/resource CONSUMPTION is to the earth and everyone else's Enormous Detriment - and that has made millions and millions of people Angry. Our consumptive lifestyle has impacted the world and its resources (yes I include all these Consumer Oriented lands, including Canada...)

We use up most of the world's resources (and pollute it as we go) while being only say 20 % of the population and because part of Any One of Us wants to believe that Money/Might is Right, we now have someone like Bush willing to lead our self delusion that we can appropriate (steal, really) that oil, those forests, those minerals, etc. etc with impunity... Those, like me, that are upset with Bush can identify with that/his/your Self Righteousness… we just feel Very Strongly that those Presumptive Abrogations of others rights have to be curbed by oneself...

If Bush Is Re-Elected: disastrously, we may come to know that all those Rushes to Judgment and Hegenomy explained above may too easily become a Rush to Death.

In Peace...

All the best Cleo.

Barry

 

[Brad]

Here's my take ...

Hi Barry,

so, Cleo is a few posts behind here looking at Pete’s summary. Not to worry, I’m sure she can make it up in no time at all … and if not with quality then with abrasive quantity.

Barry, Brad, Godload, Peter, etc. … is there a diff? We might as well be one and the same as far as Cleo’s concerned … non-americans (and non-cons?) don’t count in her good book ... and ‘God’ forbid that some of us may be from a demonic part of a society, the (dare I say it) secular section!! That is a perfect excuse to tar and feather us with the same brush.

All this is very indicative of a failure to read properly, and not only because it's at least the second time Cleo spoke to/quoted the wrong person here. Won’t even talk about creative interpretation anymore cuz that’s been said a few times already, she just ignores it anyway. Seems there can be no in-between, we must be the Coalition of the Wrong … Cleo ought to be right (righteous?) only because she says so, over and over again ad nauseum, the crude verbal oil well seems bottomless.

It’s been a while since I’ve seen someone who can twist and turn and selectively quote only what suits their purpose so well here. It almost looks like some kind of a Republican crusade, or even worse … a Neocon trolling exercise.

The Bush spin meisters would be really proud of anyone who’s swallowed their doctrine so well, hook line and sinker …

Could end this post with something like " … been a busy little Bush bee ... now buzz off!!" ... but that never works on trolls unfortunately.

Cheers

 

[Barrylightbourn]

Vote for a sane President - whichever you want...

Thanks Brad.

I wanted to add this but rushed (!) through my other post. It's a place (neutral) where "the rest of us" can vote in the election...

http://www.technicola.com/globalvote2004/

Take care...

Barry

 

[peter]

Barry, Are you in London England,or London Ontario, Canada.?

 

[Brad]

Re: Vote for a sane President - whichever you want...

Thanks Brad.

I wanted to add this but rushed (!) through my other post. It's a place (neutral) where "the rest of us" can vote in the election...

http://www.technicola.com/globalvote2004/

Take care...

Barry

Great stuff Barry!! Now if we could only make it stick!!



Non-Bushies Unite!!

 

[daleks]

.

seems like some have had their say here, not leaving much to add, but perhaps to close the post saying, i am thankful, being Canadian.

 

[peter]

I AM AMERICAN

Wassup...
I'm not particularly intelligent, open-minded, or well-liked.
And I don't live in a safe place, eat a balanced diet, or drive very well.
I don't know Shakespeare, Da Vinci or Gutenberg,
although I'm pretty sure they were American.

I drink beer, not water, I am outspoken, not opinionated,
Guns settle disputes, not discussions.
Winning isn't everything, it's the ONLY thing,
And it's pronounced RUFF, not ROOF.

I can proudly sew my country's flag on my backpack, unless I go somewhere.
Burger King IS fine dining. Washing after peeing is for LOSERS,
Twinkies and Moon Pies ARE GOOD for breakfast,
I have a SHED, NOT a GARAGE, and WWF ACTION IS REAL!

The UNITED STATES OF AMERICA is the ONLY country in the world,
The FIRST nation of IGNORANCE,
And the BEST part of SOUTH AMERICA!!
MY NAME IS JIM-BOB, I am married to my sister,
AND I AM AMERICAN!!!!!!!

 

[Maggie]

I gotta throw in a little more humor here..

cast your ballots

 

[cleopatra]

Mirage,

Your volumes and volumes of so-called "facts" are so riddled with half-truths and distortions, few people know where to begin. Who has the energy to be bothered trying to take on such a futile exercise?

Translation: I can't credibly rebut your facts, so I will, like Brad, casually dismiss them with a wave of my hand.

To go all the way back to Hitler and Mussolini, yes they may have represented themselves to the people of their time and their nations as "socialists" but in reality nothing could be farther from the truth. That's just one example of your misconstruing of the "facts".

Nonsense. Both were socialists. Hitler disarmed his citizens, hated capitalism, and hated Christianity. What was the full name of the Nazi Party? Another example of you twisting the "facts".

What is true is that many more Americans per capita are killed through the use of fireams than are Canadians

And many more Canadians commit rape than Americans do. Or is this a "half-truth" again? Do you want to go through every crime statistic to what?

And in the U.S. fire weapons are much more sought after and persons are more inclined to acquire them for the purpose of self-protection and defense rather than for hunting. This seems to me the product of a culture that promotes aggression and paranoia.

No, it is a culture that promotes reality. Criminals are able to get guns through the black market. If they know that citizens are unarmed, that gives them a big incentive to commit crimes. Put a "I support the NRA" sticker on your window and see how many criminals break into your home to rob, assault, or rape you. The UK, unfortunately, learned this the hard way when they disarmed their citizens. The bad guys didn't (shock!) turn in their guns. Who'd a thunk it?

You talk like there are no lobbyists or special interest groups in Canada. Give me a break. And you call certain Americans being in a state of denial? You are living in a West Edmonton Mall theme-park of the mind.

As for your comment about the U.S. having enough oil for its own requirements, I think you better check your sources of that information again.

I said no such thing. Please read my posts carefully. I said we have oil too. I realize that Canada has a lower standard of living economically and can't afford to travel as much as Americans, but now that your dollar is up to $0.81 (as opposed to the mid 60's), perhaps some Canadians can afford to travel to the USA and look at all the oil fields in Texas and Oklahoma. Don't forget Alaska either. Trouble is the eco-terrorists don't want us to drill there because we might hurt the caribou.

Why do you think the U.S. is in Iraq really?

Obviously you never read my previous posts. Do you know what a ceasefire agreement is? Do you know what happens when you break a ceasefire agreement? Ever heard of those 17 broken Chapter VII UN resolutions that Saddam broke? What about Iraq shooting at US aircraft on a nearly daily basis? Did Iraq not attempt to assassinate a US president who was visiting Kuwait? Did the UN not issue a report on March 6, 2003 (two weeks before Operation Iraqi Freedom) which was full of such items as 10,000 liters of anthrax have still not been accounted for? Did President Bush not say that in this day and age we can't risk taking a chance on terrorists getting their hands on WMD? Did Saddam Hussein not consider himself a sworn enemy of the US? Did Saddam not allow al Qaeda terrorists to train at Salman Pak for their attack on 9/11? Did President Bush not say that a democracy in the Mid East would be a role model for the rest of the Mid East?
Or is it because the Iraqis are merely brown people and do not deserve freedom? Just the other day, I read in the Wall Street Journal (one of those uncredible rightwing sources) that Ali (an Iraqi in Baghdad) said that it is racist when people say that this war is wrong. Ali said it suggests that the Iraqi people are barbarians and do not deserve freedom; that they only deserve to be ruled by a dictator.

I've yet to read any other person who is supportive of your point of view on this forum

Few were supportive of Ronald Reagan's hard stance against the USSR, either. Remember what happened there?

Comm'n, it was even thought initially that there was billions of barrels in Afganistan,

Haha. Only the anti-freedom people said that. I remember them talking about that mysterious pipeline that was supposed to be built. Where was it supposed to go to? Cheney's backyard, I believe.
It was your former PM (Chretien) who was more interested in Saddam's oil for his family, than enforcing the broken ceasefire and the 17 broken Chapter VII UN resolutions.

Btw, GWB went to Havard, and also to Yale, like his daddy.

I went to the same college as my father. What is your point?

As I write this the U.S. has a deficit to date in 2004 of $413 billion.

Reagan proved that deficits aren't too big a deal. Besides, $413 billion is a drop in the bucket to a country that has a GDP of $11 trillion.

sending troops off to fight terrorists in Afganistan and Iraq, so that GWB, his cronies and the elite of America and the world can enjoy financial independence, even if it means the rest of the U.S. of A. goes down the tubes economically.

Conspiracy theories galore! It's always the evil rich, isn't it?

Meanwhile Canada is enjoying a modest surplus, partly because we didn't send troops to fight in Iraq, thank God.

And partly because your govt steals your money. Why do you allow that? Don't you think you should be entitled to YOUR money? There are 3 reasons why you didn't go and enforce the broken ceasefire and 17 broken UN resolutions:
1) The Liberal Party hates conservatives and America. The numerous comments that cabinet members have made about the USA and President Bush proves this beyond a doubt.
2) Jean Chretien's daughter and son-in-law had huge financial interests in Iraq's oil fields through France's TotalFinaElf oil company.
3) Canada was too embarrassed at their lack of a military for a country of 32 million people.

The U.S. dollar is falling and Canada's is on the rise.

It's about time. Your dollar used to be worth about $0.65 compared to ours; on Friday it closed at $0.81. Still got a ways to go.

And why would Canada care about whether or not it has contracts to help rebuild Iraq

Then why did Paul Martin ask Bush for reconstruction contracts? I hope Bush does not allow this. Parasites are not allowed!

If the U.S. goes down the tubes, Canadians know that this will have a huge impact on Canada. Why do you think Canadians look at what's going on in the U.S. with such apprehension and uneasiness?

*cue foreboding music* The US is going down the tubes...let's just forget that GDP has been growing at a sizzling 4.85% over the last year and that the unemployment rate has dropped from 6.4% (which is high in the USA, but low for Canada) to 5.4%.

Why do you think Canadians look at what's going on in the U.S. with such apprehension and uneasiness?

Because your state-run and state-controlled CBC tells you to be apprehensive about capitalism.
Btw, why does your liberal controlled CRTC ban the Fox News Channel in Canada under penalty of a $10,000 fine or 6 months in jail, despite cable customers hounding their cable companies for that channel?
It's sad to see that Canada is losing its civil liberties in instances such as this. I won't even bring up your restrictions on free speech by having hate crime speech laws. Oops, I just did bring it up.

If there is yet another recession, or general economic devaluation, the personal economic responsibility which you advocate for persons in the U.S. and everywhere will only apply to those fortunate enough to have shares and interests outside the big U.S. stocks and bonds market. It will be out of reach for the vast majority, rendering your strategy for success via personal economical responsibility as the way to happiness, prosperity and well-being for individuals, family, and society in general, fallacious and ridiculous.

Nonsense. If we survived the horror of the Carter presidency, then I am confident we can survive anything. Your assumption that taking money out of the hands of the people and putting it into the govt's hands for economic prosperity is not based in fact, and quite simply, is ludicrous. The facts bear this out. Countries who practice socialism and discourage personal responsibility simply cannot compete with the USA - a country that practices capitalism and encourages personal responsibility.

Take care, my friend.

 

[cleopatra]

Peter wrote:

Cleopatra is the Queen of spin doctoring. She could even find facts to dispute that we Canadians are not only Gold meddalists in hockey, but also World champions.
Keep on spinning Cleopatra, eventually you'll spin long enough, that your own euphoria will make you dizzy.

Another fine contribution to this thread by Peter.
Btw, how many gold medals did you win at the Olympics?
How many medals, period?

 

[peter]

Peter wrote:

Another fine contribution to this thread by Peter.
Btw, how many gold medals did you win at the Olympics?
How many medals, period?

Hey congratulations, your finally responding to the proper person that posted the post.
I noticed you choose not to answer my question on the hockey, all though it just to have been a humorous one at that.
I digress, you choose instead to answer a question by asking one.
I would think a country of 250 million people would win more medals than say a country of 35 million.
keep on spinning.
I believe you may have meet your match in Barry, since you choose not to rebutt him.