Minimum number of tickets to have 3 OK with 24 numbers?

I would like to know what the minimum number of tickets is to have 3 numbers OK (out of 6 drawn) from 24 numbers to play.
Can I find those tickets required to achieve that somewhere?
 

time*treat

Member
C(24,6,3) <=116

1 2 3 4 5 6
1 2 7 8 9 10
1 2 11 12 13 14
1 2 15 16 17 18
1 2 19 20 21 22
1 3 7 11 15 19
1 3 8 12 16 20
1 3 9 13 17 21
1 3 10 14 18 22
1 4 7 12 17 22
1 4 8 11 18 21
1 4 9 14 15 20
1 4 10 13 16 19
1 5 7 13 18 20
1 5 8 14 17 19
1 5 9 11 16 22
1 5 10 12 15 21
1 6 7 14 16 21
1 6 8 13 15 22
1 6 9 12 18 19
1 6 10 11 17 20
2 3 7 12 18 21
2 3 8 11 17 22
2 3 9 14 16 19
2 3 10 13 15 20
2 4 7 11 16 20
2 4 8 12 15 19
2 4 9 13 18 22
2 4 10 14 17 21
2 5 7 14 15 22
2 5 8 13 16 21
2 5 9 12 17 20
2 5 10 11 18 19
2 6 7 13 17 19
2 6 8 14 18 20
2 6 9 11 15 21
2 6 10 12 16 22
3 4 7 8 13 14
3 4 9 10 11 12
3 4 15 16 21 22
3 4 17 18 19 20
3 5 7 10 16 17
3 5 8 9 15 18
3 5 11 14 20 21
3 5 12 13 19 22
3 6 7 9 20 22
3 6 8 10 19 21
3 6 11 13 16 18
3 6 12 14 15 17
4 5 7 9 19 21
4 5 8 10 20 22
4 5 11 13 15 17
4 5 12 14 16 18
4 6 7 10 15 18
4 6 8 9 16 17
4 6 11 14 19 22
4 6 12 13 20 21
5 6 7 8 11 12
5 6 9 10 13 14
5 6 15 16 19 20
5 6 17 18 21 22
7 8 15 17 20 21
7 8 16 18 19 22
7 9 11 14 17 18
7 9 12 13 15 16
7 10 11 13 21 22
7 10 12 14 19 20
8 9 11 13 19 20
8 9 12 14 21 22
8 10 11 14 15 16
8 10 12 13 17 18
9 10 15 17 19 22
9 10 16 18 20 21
11 12 15 18 20 22
11 12 16 17 19 21
13 14 15 18 19 21
13 14 16 17 20 22
1 2 3 4 23 24
1 2 5 6 23 24
1 2 7 8 23 24
1 2 9 10 23 24
1 11 12 13 23 24
1 14 15 16 23 24
1 17 18 19 23 24
1 20 21 22 23 24
2 11 14 17 23 24
2 12 15 20 23 24
2 13 18 21 23 24
2 16 19 22 23 24
3 5 11 16 23 24
3 6 13 15 23 24
3 7 12 18 23 24
3 8 14 22 23 24
3 9 17 20 23 24
3 10 19 21 23 24
4 5 18 20 23 24
4 6 17 22 23 24
4 7 11 19 23 24
4 8 15 21 23 24
4 9 12 14 23 24
4 10 13 16 23 24
5 7 14 21 23 24
5 8 13 17 23 24
5 9 15 19 23 24
5 10 12 22 23 24
6 7 16 20 23 24
6 8 12 19 23 24
6 9 11 21 23 24
6 10 14 18 23 24
7 9 13 22 23 24
7 10 15 17 23 24
8 9 16 18 23 24
8 10 11 20 23 24
11 15 18 22 23 24
12 16 17 21 23 24
13 14 19 20 23 24
source: ccrwest dot org
 
Thanks for the info

wow, that's a lot of tickets just to get sure you have a 3 in 24 numbers each time 6 balls are drawn. I can hardly believe THAT many tickets are needed.

Suppose I would find / have a much smaller set of tickets to assure each possible ticket would be covered (assuring at least ONE set have a 3-OK), would that have value? Would somebody pay for such a set?
I mean, if people are playing a LOT and investing much money it would cost them far less money to assure they have a 3-OK. So if I can provide a much smaller set assuring a 3-OK they could reduce their costs.
What about a set covering all 49 numbers? I saw a set of 163 tickets . If I could assure a 3-OK out of 49 balls with far less tickets would somebody pay for that?
 

hojimoe

Member
it's a lot of lines, but that's because you have a high line request...


you wanted 3/6 guaranteed if 3 of 24 are drawn.

you can lower the number of line quickly but changing to 3/6 guaranteed if 6 of 24 are drawn or 4 of 24
 

GillesD

Member
116 tickets for 24 numbers

I am also quite surprised at the high number of combinations (116) to get at least 3 winning numbers out of 6.

Why? Well, it is known that with 163 combinations, you are sure to get at least one (1) combination with 3 winning numbers for any of the 13,983,816 combinations that can come out.

But wheels, guaranteed wins and all this stuff are not exactly my strength and I may look for a way to either prove or disprove the claim made (although I think it might be true after all).
 

GillesD

Member
Revised list of combinations

I looked at the site mentioned by time*treat. It is quite complete for wheels with x/y guaranteed but certainly not the most user-friendly.

I think that, from what I could deduce, the actual number of combinations for a 3/6 guaranteed for 24 numbers is really 20. They are:

01 : 01-03-04-13-15-18
02 : 01-07-08-14-16-18
03 : 01-08-10-14-16-18
04 : 01-08-14-16-17-18
05 : 01-08-14-16-18-22
06 : 02-05-06-11-20-23
07 : 02-05-09-20-21-24
08 : 02-05-12-19-23-24
09 : 02-06-09-11-12-24
10 : 02-06-09-19-21-23
11 : 02-11-12-19-20-21
12 : 03-04-07-10-17-22
13 : 03-04-08-13-14-15
14 : 03-04-13-15-16-20
15 : 05-06-09-12-19-20
16 : 05-06-11-19-21-24
17 : 05-09-11-12-21-23
18 : 06-12-20-21-23-24
19 : 07-10-13-15-17-22
20 : 09-11-19-20-23-24

And effectively, it seems that out of the 134,596 possible combinations with 24 numbers, these 20 combinations provide at least one 3-winning numbers combination in each case.

They also confirmed the number of 163 combinations for a 3/6 guaranteed with 49 numbers.
 
I can confirm the 20-ticket-set will provide (at least) one 3-OK when drawing 6 balls out of 24.
The attachements show some analyses i made of this set.
You can see it favors certain combinations much and ticket 1 7 8 14 16 18 would be best to be drawn .
You can also see it favors some number over others much (number 20 used 7 times, while 7-10-17-22 are used just 3 times) and has a rather strange distribution of combinations of 2-balls occurring (in fact just 138 [being exactly 50%] of the 276 possible actually do occur).
Certain 3-OK , 4-OK and 5-OK combinations occur very often:
3-OK :dance1: 4-OK :dance1: 5-OK
1 8 14 ---> 4 :dance1: 1 8 14 16 ---> 4 :dance1: 1 8 14 16 18 ---> 4
1 8 16 ---> 4 :dance1: 1 8 14 18 ---> 4
1 8 18 ---> 4 :dance1: 1 8 16 18 ---> 4
1 14 16 ---> 4 :dance1: 1 14 16 18 ---> 4
1 14 18 ---> 4 :dance1: 8 14 16 18 ---> 4
1 16 18 ---> 4
8 14 16 ---> 4
8 14 18 ---> 4
8 16 18 ---> 4
14 16 18 ---> 4

I've been surprised by that 116 tickets answer provided by GillesD as it showed ALL of the 2024 possible combinations of 3-OK to be covered and also a good (allthough not 'perfect') distribution of 2-balls occurences (in my Excelsheet you can see for the 20-tickets set in the attachements).
To me that 116-sets solution looked like overkill (being confirmed by the 20-ticket solution). I myself have been working on a 24ticket solution with equal occurence for each ball and each combination of 3-OK occuring JUST once while all 2-balls-combination are covered as well (most of them just once, some 2 times) as I believe(d ??) in a uniform distribution of the things mentioned for an optimal result.

I wonder (have my big doubts) if the 163-tickets for C(49,6,3) is optimal.
Both along the lines of my investigations and the C(24,6,3)=20 I believe there will be a MUCH lower coverage possible (I expect below 50 tickets).

Allthough it being nice to have (at least) 1 3-OK within 20 tickets I wonder how that solution will allow to say something like "garanteed X tickets will have a 3-OK if you play 24 times those 20-tickets moving each ball 1 position at a time". Would X be 24 or would it be allowed to to say X being a value over 24 and how much over 24??
In this i'm not sure if a solution using a bit more tickets but with much better distribution of combinations and balls wouldn't be beter as such a solution has far less sets being covered JUST once.
Also I wonder how that 20-ticket solution will work out for winning larger prices as it covers just 282 out of 10626 combinations of 4-OK and 117 out of 42504 of 5-OK. Even if playing those tickets 24 times (like suggested above) coverage of those combinations will be small.

Buying 20 tickets will still be a very small chance of winning so its use actually is 'reducing losses' Actually if a ticket will cost 1 euro and a 3-OK will provide about 10 euro it means you can have 2 chances for something above 3-Ok for the price of one, so "you can have one chance for free".

It would be interesting to see a C(24,6,4) and/or a C(49,6,4) similar like the C(24,6,3)=20 .

Remark : I tried to add 2 (small) JPG files but it seems not posisble
 
oops ,
first : I meant 100 tickets instead of 50 in my estimation (I couldn't edit it anymore as my 15 minutes time limit expired)
second : unfortunally i couldn't uploa dthe 2 attachements
 

time*treat

Member
GillesD said:
I looked at the site mentioned by time*treat. It is quite complete for wheels with x/y guaranteed but certainly not the most user-friendly.

I think that, from what I could deduce, the actual number of combinations for a 3/6 guaranteed for 24 numbers is really 20. They are:

01 : 01-03-04-13-15-18
02 : 01-07-08-14-16-18
03 : 01-08-10-14-16-18
04 : 01-08-14-16-17-18
05 : 01-08-14-16-18-22
06 : 02-05-06-11-20-23
07 : 02-05-09-20-21-24
08 : 02-05-12-19-23-24
09 : 02-06-09-11-12-24
10 : 02-06-09-19-21-23
11 : 02-11-12-19-20-21
12 : 03-04-07-10-17-22
13 : 03-04-08-13-14-15
14 : 03-04-13-15-16-20
15 : 05-06-09-12-19-20
16 : 05-06-11-19-21-24
17 : 05-09-11-12-21-23
18 : 06-12-20-21-23-24
19 : 07-10-13-15-17-22
20 : 09-11-19-20-23-24

And effectively, it seems that out of the 134,596 possible combinations with 24 numbers, these 20 combinations provide at least one 3-winning numbers combination in each case.

They also confirmed the number of 163 combinations for a 3/6 guaranteed with 49 numbers.

I'm glad GillesD found (or created) a smaller list :thumb: as the OP asked for a minimum number. 20 is certainly in reach of more people than 116. With wheels, you decrease the likelihood of larger prizes in return for a minimum (worst case :eek:) guarantee and minimum budget. Not my style of play but...:rolling:
 

GillesD

Member
Optimized number of combination for 3 winning numbers

One thing is sure, Software Tester, playing under 102 combinations makes it impossible to guarantee at least one 3-winning numbers. With 24 numbers, you can generate 2,024 possible 3-number combinations; with each 6-number combination, you can cover 20 3-number combinations. So even if you could manage to prevent any duplicates, you would need a minimum 102 combinations to cover all 3-nuimber combinations.

One thng surprised me with the 163 combinations required to cover all 3-number combinations. My own set, which I found on this site a few years back and the set from the site mentioned by time*treat DO NOT have one combination in common. And the two sets are NOT permutations of each other. So there might be quite a few different sets that provide a guaranteed 3-winning number combination and possibly less combinations could offer the same guarantee. But this has yet to be proven.
 

time*treat

Member
There would naturally be more than one wheel set that would do the job. It wouldn't be necessary for each triplet to show up in the wheel set, just so long as each six-number group in the play set has a triplet intersecting on the wheel set.
E.g, in a 49c6 game, any six number group containing 1,2, & 3 will match 3 (or more) with 15,179 other combos.
 

savagegoose

Member
not perfect but 14 lines ,

there's a 4 hit and no 3, i saw but i doubt anyone would complain about that. for 5 6 7 8 9 and 10

I bet there's a lot of 4 hits and no 3's




6 11 12 13 16 23
1 2 10 11 15 22
5 15 16 17 19 21
12 14 17 20 22 24
4 6 8 11 17 20
2 3 6 14 19 21
7 9 11 14 15 24
3 9 10 13 17 18
6 8 12 15 18 22
5 7 8 10 14 20
9 19 20 21 22 23
1 3 4 7 12 16
2 4 5 18 23 24
1 8 13 19 21 24
 
savagegoose said:
not perfect but 14 lines ,

there's a 4 hit and no 3, i saw but i doubt anyone would complain about that. for 5 6 7 8 9 and 10

I bet there's a lot of 4 hits and no 3's




6 11 12 13 16 23
1 2 10 11 15 22
5 15 16 17 19 21
12 14 17 20 22 24
4 6 8 11 17 20
2 3 6 14 19 21
7 9 11 14 15 24
3 9 10 13 17 18
6 8 12 15 18 22
5 7 8 10 14 20
9 19 20 21 22 23
1 3 4 7 12 16
2 4 5 18 23 24
1 8 13 19 21 24

Maybe I'm missing the point completely but I grabbed those 14 lines and it shows 4148 rows will not have a 3-OK in a C(24,6,3)

would you please explain what you mean
 

savagegoose

Member
yeAH it isnt 100%

MAYBE THIS WILL DO

3 5 12 17 18 21
6 7 8 9 15 20
1 4 11 19 23 24
2 10 13 14 16 22
2 3 5 6 8 24
4 9 13 15 17 18
1 7 10 12 20 21
3 9 11 14 19 22
5 15 16 19 21 23
6 8 12 14 17 23
7 11 16 18 20 24
1 4 5 6 13 22
2 4 8 10 18 19
2 3 7 13 20 23
10 15 17 21 22 24
1 2 9 11 12 16
4 5 7 14 17 20
8 11 12 13 19 21
1 3 6 14 15 18
9 10 21 22 23 24
3 4 6 8 16 17
2 7 12 19 20 22
2 5 6 10 11 15
1 12 13 14 19 24
1 8 9 18 22 23
3 4 9 10 15 17
6 13 14 17 18 21
2 5 9 10 12 15

IF IT GETS HIT WITH 6 NUMBERS U WILL GET A 3 PAYOUT I AM GUESSING U WANT EVEN 3 HITS TO GURANTEE A 3 PAYOUT?
 
We already have a set C(24,6,3)=20 so if 6 balls are drawn from 24 numbers 20 tickets are needed to garantee (at least) ONE 3-hit.

But that set does NOT have an equal distribution of numbers and favors certain numbers and by doing that it has fewer 4-combinations and 5-combinations. Because of that chances of having a 'larger' price are 'not optimal'.

What I'm looking for is a set C(24,6,3)=X that will have no duplicates (ideal) for 4-combinations in order to maximise chances for a larger price while at the same time garantee a 3-hit.

I expect to find a solution that will have some kind of structure in it.
Until now i found that ANY combination of 3-numbers appearing more then once will increase the numbers of tickets needed and also ANY combination of 2-numbers occuring more then once (cannot be avoided !!! so it must be minimized!) will also increase the number of tickets needed.
To provide an idea of what I mean look at the set below:

1-2-4-9-10-14
2-3-5-10-11-15
3-4-6-11-12-16
4-5-7-12-13-17
5-6-8-13-14-18
6-7-9-14-15-19
7-8-10-15-16-20
8-9-11-16-17-21
9-10-12-17-18-22
10-11-13-18-19-23
11-12-14-19-20-24
12-13-15-20-21-1
13-14-16-21-22-2
14-15-17-22-23-3
15-16-18-23-24-4
16-17-19-24-1-5
17-18-20-1-2-6
18-19-21-2-3-7
19-20-22-3-4-8
20-21-23-4-5-9
21-22-24-5-6-10
22-23-1-6-7-11
23-24-2-7-8-12
24-1-3-8-9-13

This set can be generated easy by Excel using the procedure:
for i=1 to 24
X(i,1)=i
X(i,2)=1 + mod(i,24)
X(i,3)=1 + mod(X(i,2)+1,24)
X(i,4)=1 + mod(X(i,3)+4,24)
X(i,5)=1 + mod(X(i,4),24)
X(i,6)=1 + mod(X(i,1)+12,24)
next i

It covers all possible 2-combinations maximum 2 times each and has no duplicate 3-combinations. Unfortunally still 24 possible tickets are still uncovered (can be covered with 4 additional tickets). If you make a table (graph) of all 2-combinations (so ONE number as 'row' , the other as 'column') you can see its (visually nice) structure. Also the 3-combinations can be displayed in such a way and they do look structurally nice as well.

This set is not 'best possible' as it still requires 24 tickets (+ 4 to make it cover fully) but it DOES provide MAXIMUM number of 4-combinations possible (with that number of tickets) and thereby maximizing chances of a 'larger' price.
(BTW by extending the set above you can get a 'better' solution compared to the 28-ticket set provided in a previous post as more 4-combinations and 3-combinations are covered)

Like I said I expect there will be a solution that has some structure in it (maybe a 2-number-combination using significantly more compared to the others) and allowing to maximize number of 4-combinations while still garantee a 3-hit.
As 'all numbers are equal' it seems logical to me each number should appear as often like any other number (maximum difference 1) in the tickets required for full coverage. If this is wrong, I expect a FEW numbers to be used MUCH more often.

Until now I haven't found a set of tickets that beats the 20-ticket record.
 

stefan

Member
SoftwareTester said:
We already have a set C(24,6,3)=20 so if 6 balls are drawn from 24 numbers 20 tickets are needed to garantee (at least) ONE 3-hit.

But that set does NOT have an equal distribution of numbers and favors certain numbers and by doing that it has fewer 4-combinations and 5-combinations. Because of that chances of having a 'larger' price are 'not optimal'.

What I'm looking for is a set C(24,6,3)=X that will have no duplicates (ideal) for 4-combinations in order to maximise chances for a larger price while at the same time garantee a 3-hit.

I expect to find a solution that will have some kind of structure in it.
Until now i found that ANY combination of 3-numbers appearing more then once will increase the numbers of tickets needed and also ANY combination of 2-numbers occuring more then once (cannot be avoided !!! so it must be minimized!) will also increase the number of tickets needed.
To provide an idea of what I mean look at the set below:

1-2-4-9-10-14
2-3-5-10-11-15
3-4-6-11-12-16
4-5-7-12-13-17
5-6-8-13-14-18
6-7-9-14-15-19
7-8-10-15-16-20
8-9-11-16-17-21
9-10-12-17-18-22
10-11-13-18-19-23
11-12-14-19-20-24
12-13-15-20-21-1
13-14-16-21-22-2
14-15-17-22-23-3
15-16-18-23-24-4
16-17-19-24-1-5
17-18-20-1-2-6
18-19-21-2-3-7
19-20-22-3-4-8
20-21-23-4-5-9
21-22-24-5-6-10
22-23-1-6-7-11
23-24-2-7-8-12
24-1-3-8-9-13

This set can be generated easy by Excel using the procedure:
for i=1 to 24
X(i,1)=i
X(i,2)=1 + mod(i,24)
X(i,3)=1 + mod(X(i,2)+1,24)
X(i,4)=1 + mod(X(i,3)+4,24)
X(i,5)=1 + mod(X(i,4),24)
X(i,6)=1 + mod(X(i,1)+12,24)
next i

It covers all possible 2-combinations maximum 2 times each and has no duplicate 3-combinations. Unfortunally still 24 possible tickets are still uncovered (can be covered with 4 additional tickets). If you make a table (graph) of all 2-combinations (so ONE number as 'row' , the other as 'column') you can see its (visually nice) structure. Also the 3-combinations can be displayed in such a way and they do look structurally nice as well.

This set is not 'best possible' as it still requires 24 tickets (+ 4 to make it cover fully) but it DOES provide MAXIMUM number of 4-combinations possible (with that number of tickets) and thereby maximizing chances of a 'larger' price.
(BTW by extending the set above you can get a 'better' solution compared to the 28-ticket set provided in a previous post as more 4-combinations and 3-combinations are covered)

Like I said I expect there will be a solution that has some structure in it (maybe a 2-number-combination using significantly more compared to the others) and allowing to maximize number of 4-combinations while still garantee a 3-hit.
As 'all numbers are equal' it seems logical to me each number should appear as often like any other number (maximum difference 1) in the tickets required for full coverage. If this is wrong, I expect a FEW numbers to be used MUCH more often.

Until now I haven't found a set of tickets that beats the 20-ticket record.


A 24 number wheel with 100% 2if2, 100% 3if6 and max 4if4 can be constructed in 22 lines, with all numbers "more or less" equally distributed.

Stefan
 

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